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Apocalypse Tribe HQ _ The Lounge _ Kerry Vs. Bush
Posted by: Zio Oct 15 2004, 06:41 AM
I thuoght I'd make this just to see what the people AT think about the two presidents and who should be president. I personally vote Bush just because I don't think Kerry would do a good job for many reasons such as he says hes going to make all these different plans but he doesn't say how he is going to pay for them. Bush isn't as good of a speaker but I think he gets his point across. Kerry keeps saying Bush is the first president to lose a lot of jobs in 72 years which is total crap cuz the economy was falling before Bush got into office and then 9/11 hit a year later and people stopped going places and buying things for a little while. This is a good example of whats happened when Hoover got into offlice 70 some years ago. Plus Bush has done a good job of getting a good amount of jobs back. Just vote who you want to be president and why.
Posted by: DarkEpyon Oct 15 2004, 07:41 AM
Kerry doesn't have anything to back up his myriad plans. As for the economy, what some folks fail to remember is that Bush inherited a recession because his predecessor undid what Ronald Reagan started. On the military, since Pres. Bush has been in office, the military has received a 21% pay increase. Good news for those of us with family members in the armed forces.
And another thing is, I don't want the "Ketchup Princess" Theresa Heinz Kerry as the first lady. She'll be the biggest back-seat driver like you wouldn't believe.
John Kerry's own party doesn't even support him! I think they're gearing up for Hillary in '08.
Posted by: Gabriell Oct 15 2004, 09:49 AM
I hate political discussions. Some people act like they can change another persons opinion, and then everyone gets mad when they start talking about it! Useless.
For that matter, I shall never say who I support >.>
The only thing that's important is that you go out and vote if you are registered.
Posted by: Zio Oct 15 2004, 09:59 AM
| QUOTE (Gabriell @ Oct 15 2004, 09:49 AM) |
| I hate political discussions. Some people act like they can change another persons opinion, and then everyone gets mad when they start talking about it! Useless. For that matter, I shall never say who I support >.> The only thing that's important is that you go out and vote if you are registered. |
I think that term you just described would be called debating >_> then again yeah some people do flip out about it like a certain someone in my math class but hes about the only one I know that gets really mad about it. And of course get out and vote November 2nd!
Posted by: Dive Oct 15 2004, 10:27 AM
| QUOTE (Gabriell @ Oct 15 2004, 10:49 AM) |
| The only thing that's important is that you go out and vote if you are registered. |
Actually even better would be to learn as much as you can about the candidates and then voice your opinion with a vote.
Personally I feel this whole Kerry vs. Bush brouhaha equates to one of those old Toho monster movies. Like Godzilla vs. Mothra, no matter who wins, Tokyo gets destroyed in the process.
Let's try and keep this discussion civil, I can see how it could get ugly.
Posted by: Sgt. Retehi Oct 15 2004, 11:00 AM
I don't care for politics one bit, and this election isn't making it any better. It's like a 1st grade class election.
I'm tired of all the Vietnam shit though, talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel for dirt.
Highly doubt I'll vote anyway, sad considering it's the first time I can vote.
Posted by: DarkEpyon Oct 15 2004, 11:04 AM
| QUOTE (Dive @ Oct 15 2004, 12:27 PM) |
| Personally I feel this whole Kerry vs. Bush brouhaha equates to one of those old Toho monster movies. Like Godzilla vs. Mothra, no matter who wins, Tokyo gets destroyed in the process. |
And no Gransazers or Justirizers to stop them.
Posted by: Astrid Oct 15 2004, 12:26 PM
| QUOTE (Zio @ Oct 15 2004, 09:59 AM) |
| I think that term you just described would be called debating >_> then again yeah some people do flip out about it like a certain someone in my math class but hes about the only one I know that gets really mad about it. And of course get out and vote November 2nd! |
There's a big difference between debating and competely flipping out because someone has an opposing point of view. Sadly, I know more people who react with the latter than with the former.
With that said, I side with Gabriell. The notion of debating implies a calm discussion in which each interlocutor attempts to sway the views of another with consistent, intelligent evidence for his or her position. It does not, however, include broadly, and offensively, generalyzing the position of their opponent and the idea that the louder their voice gets, the more their point gets across. It has been my experience that when I am in a debate with a hothead, words fall on deaf ears -- for me and for my opponent. I will not be swayed by coercion, as I am sure most of you will not be, either. Please note that this implies to the aggressive psycho, too, as they are so clouded by their anger or desire to look like the good little loyal subject to his point of view (so passionate! *rolls eyes*), that they will not listen to a single word you have to say, and excuse any evidence you have to some rediculous label.
I commend DE for his very intelligent post, but I will withhold my own opinions for at least a few days, by when I should see if we are capable of having a mature and intelligent discussion.
Sorry if I'm overstepping my boundaries as a neophyte here, but maybe it's just residual bitterness over my last few "debates" on the matter.
</rant>
Posted by: Gabriell Oct 15 2004, 12:58 PM
I just see debating over opinions as a waste of energy, is all (I'm not saying you shouldn't talk about it, I'm just throwing in my ideas :D ). Most of the time, you can't change a persons opinion, even if it is extremely flawed. I just think, a majority of politics is your opinion (Although, of course, there are many facts that can be debated). Everytime I see someone debate politics, it always gets ugly. No one likes beind told they are wrong. I only see it helping out people who are on the fence, and I'd wish said people could get the facts from an unbiased source and make up their mind accourding to what ideals they relate too, instead of getting information from post-debate discussions, or relying on visual aesthetics. That'll never happen, though 
Debating over facts is great, though. But most of the time it just turns into "I believe in this" vs. "I don't believe in that. So you're stupid". There are a lot of facts that can be debated on each side, though.
However, I think it's a good thing to talk about what you believe in, and not try to sway people who are already set in their ways off course, but simply talk and try to understand where they are coming from. It helps people get to know each others ideals, instead of seperating them. But that's just how I view almost everything, so eh.
| QUOTE |
| Actually even better would be to learn as much as you can about the candidates and then voice your opinion with a vote. |
100% agreed. I didn't mean it to come off as "vote blindly" or what have you. I was hoping the research part would be implied
Posted by: Mute Oct 15 2004, 01:28 PM
I don't know if I like Kerry... but I can say I strongly oppose having George W. Bush back in office. That is all.
Posted by: DarkEpyon Oct 15 2004, 01:30 PM
| QUOTE (Mute @ Oct 15 2004, 03:28 PM) |
| I don't know if I like Kerry... but I can say I strongly oppose having George W. Bush back in office. That is all. |
Well, there's always Ralph Nader, providing he didn't get kicked off the ballot here too.
Posted by: Sgt. Retehi Oct 15 2004, 01:43 PM
| QUOTE (DarkEpyon @ Oct 15 2004, 12:30 PM) | ||
Well, there's always Ralph Nader, providing he didn't get kicked off the ballot here too. |
He has about 2% of the popular vote, with a margin of error of 3% or so.
Poor guy.
Posted by: DarkEpyon Oct 15 2004, 01:45 PM
Pretty much all 3rd party folks are screwed over like this every single election.
Posted by: Zorya Oct 15 2004, 05:25 PM
I'm not even going to get into an argument about who I think should be President. People who are around me and who know me know who I support.
One thing I DO want to say is this: whoever you support, whoever you think should be the leader of the free world, it is your opportunity and your duty as an American citizen to VOTE on November 2nd.
Posted by: DivA Oct 15 2004, 08:06 PM
reality check, folks - both presidential candidates are unfit to rule.. both are bought & paid for, compliments of your neighborhood federal reserve corporation - have a nice day.. ;)
Posted by: Rogue Oct 15 2004, 08:16 PM
| QUOTE (DivA @ Oct 15 2004, 09:06 PM) |
| reality check, folks - both presidential candidates are unfit to rule.. |
Agreed. 100 percent.
Posted by: hamstar Oct 16 2004, 07:00 AM
I put in the poll for Kerry, even though I don't vote for him.
I am strongly opposed to Bush being reelected (and...in all honesty...considering leaving the US and renouncing citizenship if he is...yes realistically).
I dislike Kerry for being a subserviant democrat, the same reason I hate 90% of democrats, they are too conserned with playing to both sides to get into office that you cannot tell their views.
Which isn't close to as bad as republicans who have their head stuck so far up their ignorant, intollerant, selfish asses to even pretend to be an "honest" person.
Democrats are wishy-washy and republicans are just plain corrupt.
I vote third party, support dangerous ideas such as government and election reform, socialized healthcare and affirmative action.
If I offended you, good.
-Ham
Posted by: Dorian Oct 16 2004, 10:24 AM
I'm not ganna vote, even though I don't like bush. I don't know why anyone makes a big deal about voting anyway. No ones vote really counts, ever hear of the electoral college? Heh, some democracy.
Posted by: HC82 Oct 16 2004, 03:33 PM
| QUOTE (Dive @ Oct 15 2004, 10:27 AM) | ||
Personally I feel this whole Kerry vs. Bush brouhaha equates to one of those old Toho monster movies. Like Godzilla vs. Mothra, no matter who wins, Tokyo gets destroyed in the process. |
Exactly how I feel.
Posted by: AC9breaker Oct 16 2004, 04:43 PM
Dive's post expressed my sentiments well. It feels as if there s an Ogliopoly control most of the politcal offices by the wealthy of America. But what really bothers me is when people complain but don't actually put much effort in changeing the situation. But thats their perogative. But then its even worse when people impose their ideal or beliefs on us. Tells who and what to vote for. Even the whole "Vote or Die" message being pushed by the rap community is really agitating.
I believe Albert Einstien was the one who said,"Peace can not be achieved through war, but through understanding" I think about this every time I try to persuade everyone into believe some of my particular ideals, but then I "wonder what if war is the only way the can understand?"
I also agree with the insight you shared with us DE. To me this is just a ploy to get ready For Hilary come 2008.
Posted by: Ellianna Oct 16 2004, 05:54 PM
egh it's basically deciding which one is the lesser of 2 evils. i'm not voting..i'm not even registered ... if i were though i'd have to vote for kerry, considering some issues on things bush wants to make illegal...i can not support his views, but i dont like kerry either so that leaves me not voting. 
Posted by: Ferra Oct 17 2004, 09:32 PM
i think your mom should win the presidential election of 2004.
Posted by: Zio Oct 21 2004, 06:41 AM
Well it looks like Kerry won the vote on here but for those of you who know what channel one is Bush won in their version of the electoral college 393 to 173 I think. Kerry only won California, Hawaii, and a few of the New England states. I just hope the same thing happens a couple weeks from now.
Posted by: Zorya Oct 22 2004, 02:01 AM
Well luckily, the same kids who watch Channel One in homeroom aren't old enough to vote.
Posted by: DarkEpyon Oct 31 2004, 12:22 PM
With Election Day drawing ever closer (Tuesday in fact) I offer one last piece of advice:
If you don't like any of the presidential candidates, then Bozo the Clown in '04.
A pity Dive or Woe cannot run, seeing as they're under 35.
Forget democrats and republicans; this is the 
party!
Posted by: Astrid Nov 2 2004, 10:54 PM
| QUOTE (DarkEpyon @ Oct 31 2004, 12:22 PM) |
| With Election Day drawing ever closer (Tuesday in fact) I offer one last piece of advice: If you don't like any of the presidential candidates, then Bozo the Clown in '04. A pity Dive or Woe cannot run, seeing as they're under 35. Forget democrats and republicans; this is the party! |
They can't, but SCU can! Unitself for president in '04! He's for technological advancement -- and technological superiority, but that's besides the point :D
Posted by: DarkEpyon Nov 2 2004, 11:05 PM
Oh man... at the rate this thing's going, we'll be lucky if we know who the President is at 4AM!
Posted by: Ferra Nov 2 2004, 11:25 PM
:(
@
Amendment 3
Posted by: DarkEpyon Nov 2 2004, 11:29 PM
| QUOTE (Ferra @ Nov 3 2004, 01:25 AM) |
| :( @ Amendment 3 |
Yeah... Most of the stuff I voted on won (save for ammendments 3 and 5). #4 is still a toss-up as of now.
Looks like Ohio is going to become the Florida of '04. About 75% of the state is using the antiquated punch cards. We could have the same hanging chad bullshit.
Posted by: Zio Nov 3 2004, 06:47 AM
| QUOTE (DarkEpyon @ Nov 2 2004, 11:29 PM) |
| Looks like Ohio is going to become the Florida of '04. About 75% of the state is using the antiquated punch cards. We could have the same hanging chad bullshit. |
Probably. Here in Ohio they still have to count the provisional ballots and absentee ballots (I think) which total to be about 250,000 votes. Bush is currently ahead by 150,000. I'm also sure law suits will hit the fan either way... Ohio is worth 20 electoral votes so whoever takes it wins. News says its not official but they are lookin at Bush winning it.
-Edit: In electoral votes Bush has 254 and Kerry has 252. It could take several days for the votes in Ohio to be counted. Plus how can Bush not take Ohio when most of the congressmen such as the senators and representatives got elected and were republican -_-
Posted by: Gabriell Nov 3 2004, 07:06 AM
Being in Ohio as well, I can tell you that the problem last night was the fact that a lot of the polling places were not prepared for the huge turnout. Even when all the state polls were closed, a couple of areas in ohio were still going because there was a huge line even after 7:30.
Zio is correct. There really isn't any scandal, like there was in florida. There are just so many provisional ballets out, and it's so close that it just may swing the state. If Kerry didn't hold out until they were atleast counted, it would just be foolish on his part. From what I understand, the provisionals won't even be counted until Thursday, and the absentee ballots didn't even have to be postmarked until last night. I heard it could be something like 11 days until we officially know.
I just don't see Kerry getting a majority of those votes though, because the areas most of those people are in are republican. We will see. Stranger things have happened.
Posted by: DarkEpyon Nov 3 2004, 09:17 AM
At least every democratic candidate is guaranteed 55 electoral votes from Cali. That's thanks to Hollywood which is 99% democrat.
Bush has over 58 million popular votes, which is a new record for any president in history.
EDIT: A WINNER IS DUBYA!!
V-I-C-T-ORY!
Posted by: Zio Nov 3 2004, 04:46 PM
| QUOTE (DarkEpyon @ Nov 3 2004, 09:17 AM) |
| At least every democratic candidate is guaranteed 55 electoral votes from Cali. That's thanks to Hollywood which is 99% democrat. Bush has over 58 million popular votes, which is a new record for any president in history. EDIT: A WINNER IS DUBYA!! V-I-C-T-ORY! |
Bush is teh winner! wooot!
Posted by: DarkEpyon Nov 3 2004, 05:19 PM
At least Kerry was man enough to admit he couldn't pull this one off. One thing I found odd about his concession speech was he thanked his fellow swift boat vets, yet they hate his guts.
Well, we have 4 more years to live now. If Hillary wins in 2008, to Canada I go.
Posted by: Sgt. Retehi Nov 3 2004, 05:47 PM
Well we're doomed.
Tijuana ahoy!
Posted by: Dive Nov 3 2004, 06:00 PM
now doesn't that make you feel better?
the pigs have won tonight.
now they can all sleep soundly.
and everything is all right.
Posted by: Dorian Nov 3 2004, 06:34 PM
Well this sucks, bush has another 4 years, which means that I gatta start saving up money so Astrid can go to college. He's ganna take all the college money, I know it.
Posted by: HC82 Nov 3 2004, 06:45 PM
UGH, I don't know how he pulled it off. The whole cutting of college funding is going to piss me the hell off.
Posted by: Mute Nov 3 2004, 07:04 PM
| QUOTE |
| Bush has over 58 million popular votes, which is a new record for any president in history. |
Don't be fooled by this, the election itself yielded the highest voter turnout since 1968. Bush got 51% of these votes. You do the math. Half the country still hates him.
| QUOTE |
| Well, we have 4 more years to live now. |
These guys don't.
...
I'm pretty shocked by the results. I'm happy it was a close race, but I'm disappointed that so many Americans voted to re-elect him. He's really hurt the country in so many ways and I'm sad that people are not seeing this. I suppose the Democrats might have picked the wrong candidate, but I feel any man is better than Bush. The balance of power in the Senate and House scares me a bit as well since they are both swayed in favor of the Republicans. Even worse, I fucking sound like Morfos from TA right now (no offense to that person). I don't particularly like debates/politics, but the whole Bush regime really makes me sick to my stomach.
<cyncisim> Let's just hope someone can fix all the damage that is left in the wake of his 8 year tenure. </cynicism>
X_X
Posted by: DarkEpyon Nov 3 2004, 08:46 PM
| QUOTE (Dive @ Nov 3 2004, 08:00 PM) |
| now doesn't that make you feel better? the pigs have won tonight. now they can all sleep soundly. and everything is all right. |
Ah, Animal Farm (I think). Good book. The political system interests me because I've always liked to see what makes things tick.
The way I see it, we've been doing things like this for 200+ years and are still intact, so we must be doing something right.
Of course this is coming from one whose father gave 26 years of his life to protect our way of life in the Air Force, which I would have joined, but can't for medical reasons.
Posted by: Nynaeve Nov 4 2004, 04:54 AM
My one consolation in all this - now he's done with the presidency and he can never ever ever EVER run for President again.
I expect the country to continue its downward slide, and I agree with Mute, I hope someone can come in after 8 yrs and fix it. When you look at how the Dems left the country 4 years ago, it seems that everyone slid so fast...so maybe it can be fixed quick.
I just saw a news snippet saying Vegas is giving odds already on who will run next time - with Clinton and Gulianni (sp?) the best bets, Edwards and I forget the other Repub. the other two...I hope BOTH parties spend alot of time finding us better candidates this time than the two we had to choose from now, and I personally dont think Clinton OR Gulianni are acceptable examples in the least. >.<
Posted by: DarkEpyon Nov 4 2004, 07:53 AM
At least everyone agrees to disagree here. Interestingly enough, one of the initiatives on the ballot in Alaska was to legalize pot. However, my days with that stuff are over, especially since I hava a girlfriend who would break her foot off in my ass and then leave me if I lit up another J.
Posted by: Zio Nov 5 2004, 06:50 AM
| QUOTE (Nynaeve @ Nov 4 2004, 04:54 AM) |
| My one consolation in all this - now he's done with the presidency and he can never ever ever EVER run for President again. |
Yeah, Bush could never run again but Cheney still can >_> although I seriously doubt it because he is kinda getting up there in the years.
Posted by: Nynaeve Nov 5 2004, 08:26 AM
Good point, however I have read that he has stated he has no interest in continuing in politics, as he can make lots more money in private industry instead, and that is where his goals are.
Besides, I do not believe that he would ever get the nod - hell, half his party wanted him booted for a different VP, didn't they?
His health, his age, his poor attitude, (now that I think about it, I don't think his age has any bearing) his scandals, his business ties, all those work against him, and I think he knows it.
Posted by: DarkEpyon Nov 5 2004, 09:47 AM
Back in 2000, Dick Cheney was really more daddy's pick for VP than it was his son's.
Many are already predicting John McCain vs. Hillary Clinton for 2008. I would've wanted McCain to win in 2000, but oh well.
Posted by: Azrael Nov 5 2004, 04:42 PM
I think Hilary Clinton would have an excellent chance of becoming President. I know one thing, if I can't get a job and the loan people start demanding money, I wish I could tell them to go to the White House and ask Bush for it.
Posted by: Nynaeve Nov 6 2004, 07:06 AM
| QUOTE (Azrael @ Nov 5 2004, 04:42 PM) |
| I think Hilary Clinton would have an excellent chance of becoming President. |
Interesting - I am sad to say I know SO many people who would not...because she's a woman, and a STRONG one at that. How sad is that.
I don't know why, but I have a strong physical very VISCERAL reaction to McCain when I see him on television. He frightens me. I know his record is amazing, I know there's no real logic behind it, but that man gives off vibes to me that make me weep at the thought of him being in a position of absolute power. Go figure.
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