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Omar
People are misunderstanding the concept of "Arguments" and "Disagreements".

either way... people need to chill... ;)

basically we wont know how this works till we try it out... i mean you never buy a car without a test drive right?
Astrid
QUOTE (proj @ Apr 20 2004, 04:30 PM)
Seriously what's the big deal? Oviously this has been thought out. It's not like it's a democracy we're not changing countries or affiliations or absorbing a bunch of other linkshells. We're still talking about the same people with a new cool name and cool new linkshell color. This change will be a good catalyst for the linkshell moving foward.


Why not? Dive and Woe didn't pick the name out without consulting the rest of us. In fact, we even voted on the names. I do think that we should have probably consulted the entire linkshell, but they by no means have all the power. Believe me, if we were all powerless puppets in their hands, I'd have been out of here a long time ago, being a person who loves speaking her mind above all else.

This is hardly tyranny in disguise -- if that was the case, most of us would have been gone eons ago, I'm sure.
Rogue
There's a difference between a civil argument and flat out treating someone like shit.

I think it's the second one they're more concerned about.

I haven't been on much lately, so I don't know how bad it is, but this topic is ridiculous. Chill out, dammit ._.
Astrid
QUOTE (proj @ Apr 20 2004, 04:30 PM)
Seriously what's the big deal? Oviously this has been thought out. It's not like it's a democracy we're not changing countries or affiliations or absorbing a bunch of other linkshells. We're still talking about the same people with a new cool name and cool new linkshell color. This change will be a good catalyst for the linkshell moving foward.


Why not? Dive and Woe didn't pick the name out without consulting the rest of us. In fact, we even voted on the names. I do think that we should have probably consulted the entire linkshell, but they by no means have all the power. Believe me, if we were all powerless puppets in their hands, I'd have been out of here a long time ago, being a person who loves speaking her mind above all else.

This is hardly tyranny in disguise -- if that was the case, most of us would have been gone eons ago, I'm sure.

EDIT: Gah. Didn't mean to post this twice >:/
The JadeDragon
QUOTE
Why not? Dive and Woe didn't pick the name out without consulting the rest of us. In fact, we even voted on the names. I do think that we should have probably consulted the entire linkshell, but they by no means have all the power.


From what I understand, the LS and the AT "clan" are two seperate things. So if this move to a new LS is to embrace ALL of the sites/groups/etc we are all from, why did only a select few get to vote? It seems that the AT "clan" is taking over the LS and the rest of us mean dick. I'm not mad at anyone, but this really pisses me off. If I have no say in anything concerning the LS, why the fuck should I be in the LS? I love you all for the things you have all done to help me...but this is stupid. I was lied to and made to believe that in the LS we were all equal. This seems to not be the case... beigeconfused.gif
Madgeiser
QUOTE (Zorya @ Apr 20 2004, 07:05 PM)
There are people on the Linkshell who bend over backwards to help others out: Sil, Alex, Dirge, Bryn, Dom, Astrid, Wir, and Dorian are a few I can list right off the top of my head. In my opinion, these people exemplify the spirit of what AC should be.

If you log on with the thought, "Let's see what I can get these people to do for me tonight," then in my opinion, you don't deserve to be carrying that pearl. You don't deserve to associate youself with us. If you use your fellow ACers with absolutely no intention of contributing anything of your own, you demean what makes AC a community, and frankly, you don't belong here.

This i was not aware of, hence the you don't see me participate much in helping expedition or maybe it is just my arkward time. I'll be more mindful of people needing help in the future, if i can and able i will try....
Dive
ok I admit we made a huge mistake in not informing many people of this change over. We fucked up plain and simple. I had no idea the type of reaction this would garner. I hear people saying they are not going to join this new Linkshell and others just outright pissed at us for some reason.

In my opinion, it has always seemed that all of the planning and setup for any mass Linkshell event has started here at ATHQ and has been overseen by the AT higher ups. I was under the impression that people are fine with a select group of players doing all the hard work for them and taking care of "business". And believe me when I tell you this, Woe and I have tried so hard to make a pleasant online experience for EVERYBODY.

In the begnining AT was a small core group of friends. This site has expanded on that and grown to accomodate our much larger "family" now. The caste structure apparent here is only to signify those who have been in AT for so long, and also to identify the forum staff and helpers. AT is not a dictatorship, It never has been.

This discussion has gone on far too long without any voice of reason. I cannot be here 24/7 monitiring topics. It seems people have already made their judgements concerning this without hearing my feedback on their opinions. I have seen the ruckus this has caused and the people who are already heading for the exit.

Let me say this one more time. Woe and I made a huge mistake. We never meant to alienate anyone, or make them feel that they do not have a voice concerning everyone's Linkshell.

The new Linkshell plan is now on hold, at least in my view.

Let us please continue this discussion without massive assmuptions and en masse dapartures. I feel that people have put their trust in us up to this point, do you think that we would lead you astray?

Do you think that we do not value your opinions?

I have more to say.
Omar
woot nice post... i still dont see what the huge problem was... i mean who came up with the original name and color?

who cares everyone have fun! its ffxi... this thread should have never made 4 pages......

guys.. its not a big deal.. lol i cant stress this enough... its a name change.. wow!.. and who cares if the higher ups made the decision..

1. they are higher ups.. simply put...
2. they know what they are doing.. they arent stupid...
3. without them you wouldnt even have this damn site....
4. chill out.. because just like with anything.. things can change.. and positive feedback can help...

either way.. i say do what you want with the ls color and name.. as long as i get a pearl when i come back may 7th..

Done....
Henge
dirge, thank you for saying something.... i feel exactly as you do. i've been sitting here reading this thread all day and i am just at a loss for words all i can say, is i'm am sincearly sorry to anyone we have offended, our intentions were nothing but good, i assure you all.

as dirge said, AT IS NOT in any way a dictatiorship. everyone here is equal, as is everyone in AC and ALL of your oppinions matter greatly.

Zorya and Elli: STOP IT, this is not the place for this. it shouldn't have been brought up here in the first place. it is entirely out of context.



Dive
AIM chatroom in progress. Turn on your AIM client right now to join the discussion,
Bantam13
QUOTE (Dive @ Apr 20 2004, 07:47 PM)
And believe me when I tell you this, Woe and I have tried so hard to make a pleasant online experience for EVERYBODY

In the begnining AT was a small core group of friends.  This site has expanded on that and grown to accomodate our much larger "family" now.  The caste structure apparent here is only to signify those who have been in AT for so long, and also to identify the forum staff and helpers.  AT is not a dictatorship,  It never has been. 

Let me say this one more time.  Woe and I made a huge mistake.  We never meant to alienate anyone, or make them feel that they do not have a voice concerning everyone's Linkshell.

Dang, and people ask me why I'm not much of a forum person....

I believe Woe n' Dirge (new style comedy team~BANZAI!!) have been taking extra measures as of late to keep us rowdy folk under a modicum of control. Unfortunately, tempers flare when something goes amiss or someone is not readily available to assist others....

Now I myself would love to participate in the linkshell more often....but as I've said before, I have friends all over the place on Bismarck and I have to usually divide my time up evenly between them. Kyl (Khao) and I lost a good one last Friday (swapped servers ~ arguement was too many hotheads/self-centered people) and so a lot of my time as of late has been going about and relegating this news to all who knew him, etc.

Anyway, I would like to see every person here allowed a greater involvement in decision making whether it's large or small....suggestions, et al....nothing too heavy. One or two people headlining this tour bus should be enough to get us to Frisco and the Grandfathers of Alterna-Soul-Funk-House-Rock Benefit with minimal conflict, neh??

I've had many linkshells die or break up on me in the few months I've been around Bismarck and I'd hate to see this one fall the same fate....unlikely as it may seem, but I don't rely on certanties anymore.


Bantam13
--See ya round' ~
HC82
QUOTE (The JadeDragon @ Apr 20 2004, 07:04 PM)
QUOTE
Why not? Dive and Woe didn't pick the name out without consulting the rest of us. In fact, we even voted on the names. I do think that we should have probably consulted the entire linkshell, but they by no means have all the power.


From what I understand, the LS and the AT "clan" are two seperate things. So if this move to a new LS is to embrace ALL of the sites/groups/etc we are all from, why did only a select few get to vote? It seems that the AT "clan" is taking over the LS and the rest of us mean dick. I'm not mad at anyone, but this really pisses me off. If I have no say in anything concerning the LS, why the fuck should I be in the LS? I love you all for the things you have all done to help me...but this is stupid. I was lied to and made to believe that in the LS we were all equal. This seems to not be the case... beigeconfused.gif

OK, about the democracy thing.

Feelings aren't always fact and let's all look at this logically. First off all, we talked about this whole democracy thing before, before Jade Dragon signed up here on the forums. We always take into consideration everyones opinions. If we miss someone, it's not intentional. Don't feel like your being jipped here.

Need proof?

You see my rank? Paragon. You see the little "number joined?" Yes, it says number 4. Guess what? I didn't give in any input about the name of the new linkshell or the idea of the new linkshell. So, the associates aren't being purposely left out here, because if they are, so are the paragons.

Why am I not mad? Because, it's not intentional. If I have something to bring up, I bring it up. It's the character, logic, and persuassion of the individual that determines a logical choice in these matters. If your two cents got missed out, SO did mine and it wasn't intentional.

AC is not all AT, so everyone has a say in this.

No one is trying to forcefully butt out someone elses opinions. Everyone had a valid point. Some points:

A) It's not a big deal. Name means nothing to me right now. It's about the content of the guild when you think about it, not the name. I don't care if the name is left the same or changed, it's about the PEOPLE. (This is my personal opinion).

B) The union of AT and AC is the foundation for the LS. Removing the LS is like removing what all this was built on. Some peeps feel left out on this choice or feel it's not needed. If anything, something that represents everyone and the AT/AC is in order.

C) We need something totally new to represent a unity between all the old and new. Something to bring us all closer together.

The way I see it. If the name Apocalypse Cow TRULY bothers some people on this forum, then we can come to some sort of new name that everyone will like. If the name doesn't bug anyone, leave it be and we can just focus more on a guild ethic then just a new name. A name means nothing without the power behind it.
Azrael
I didn't think referring to someone as being a leader or leaders would help spark this kind of discussion on the LS. I was just saying that I trusted their decision and would follow whatever they decided on unless I really had a problem with the change. The reason why I said the color should change(and that was a little harmless nitpick) is because almost half of the bismarck server has our color linkshell. It would be unique if we had a less popular color that a million people didn't have. I honestly didn't think that this post would get this long. I knew there was going to be a response but I thought it would have been way less minor than this. Whatever gets decided on this issue, it won't make a difference to me as long as I still get to hang with this fine group of people until I quit this game(a long way off) forever. buttrock.gif
drunken_chibi
haha.. look at what i started. like i said, i'll go to the meeting and hear everything out, before i make my final decision, but it's the very attitude of over half of these replies that has me questioning this move from the get-go. thank you dive and HC for clarifying about AC and AT, perhaps everyone else will listen and dispense with the caste system prattle. and thanks dive for owning up and taking responsibility.. although had i kept my mouth shut i doubt this topic would have gotten out of control.
Dive
Come to the AIM meeting everyone.

message darksidedive now
Dive
Feel free to add your opinions to this matter, but it has been decided that for now...the new LS idea is put on hold. There will be further topics on this matter soon.

Thank you for your patience and understanding in this matter.
Zorya
QUOTE (Woe @ Apr 20 2004, 07:57 PM)
Zorya and Elli: STOP IT, this is not the place for this. it shouldn't have been brought up here in the first place. it is entirely out of context.

Unless I am mistaken, I don't recall mentioning any names in my post. It therefore leaves me to assume that the deletion of my post was the result of some personal vendetta or someone else's temper tantrum.
Ikari
I was online so I couldn't participate in the AIM thing (stupid single computer), but I'm gonna voice my opinion here. Feel free to ignore it. Immature name calling, complaining, fighting,.....this is all I do. Granted none of it is serious, but I apologize if I have offended anyone. Really if it seems that I am being offensive, try to remeber that I am probably just playing around (you'll know if I am seriously pissed off).

As for the LS change, I will go with whatever the higher ups here deciede. I don't really feel that it is my decision as it is not my LS. I do appreciate being let in and the help I have recieved. And I was very happy when you let in some of the people I know from Voodoo Moose. I don't know exactly where the problem lie. To be honest, I am usually too busy making fun of Alex or bitching about my AF to notice what else is going on. I apologize if I or anyone from VM has caused a problem. It was my intent to invite them so that they could experience the LS in the same manner that I have.

That being said, I have always rather enjoyed the name of the LS, even before I knew it's origins. If you wish to change it, then so be it. However, I don't think that there is any need for it. Maybe it is about time to start limiting new recruits; but these are decisions for those that are in charge. Thus I leave it at that.
Kazicht
Kitsume, your as much part of AC as I am, and I've been here since the brith of it.
We all have a voice in it. It is our badge, we wear it proudly as we do our adventuring in Vana'Diel. *salute*

And hehe, ofcorse its understood your messing around practically all the time, I'm sure no one is really offended whenever you push us on the floor, or kick us while we're healing. beigeroll.gif
Nynaeve
QUOTE (Ikari @ Apr 21 2004, 09:38 AM)
I apologize if I or anyone from VM has caused a problem. It was my intent to invite them so that they could experience the LS in the same manner that I have.

I hope this is not the case, but would like to know if it is....

The only comment I had was based on personal experience in terms of setting "rules". No one wants to play a game in order to be told what they can and cannot do, just as no one wants to come to a forum to post and have fun, to be told what they can or cannot do...but I agree with the person who said that setting general guidelines is important. Over at VoodooMoose, we didn't...we chose the path of "We're all friends, we don't need to police people, let's just let it go as it goes", and to be honest, that caused immense frustration, a sense of "no one cares", and it lost us quite a few important members in a huge to-do that took alot of us by surprise and was very painful emotionally. We've since regained a few of those lost (to us) souls, thankfully, and with their help we've taken a different approach, and it works.

There's nothing wrong with setting expectations...it simply means that everyone knows where they stand and should problems arise, they know where to turn, what to expect, and there's a feeling of both security and a sense of importance that comes with the guidelines. "Look, they care enough about making this experience the best it can be with these rules...this isn't a free for all..."

Don't know if that makes any sense...but just wanted to present it from a different viewpoint. I think the general guidelines are a great idea, as they lead to order rather than chaos, and show a sense of respect for the community/LS.
Khaotika
QUOTE (Dorian @ Apr 20 2004, 05:37 PM)
Sometimes people are just genually pissed off. But something does need to be done about the few who bicker and complain all the time. It's a mood killer.

My ears are burning...

beigelaugh.gif

-Khao
Dive
QUOTE (Nynaeve @ Apr 21 2004, 09:52 AM)
QUOTE (Ikari @ Apr 21 2004, 09:38 AM)
I apologize if I or anyone from VM has caused a problem. It was my intent to invite them so that they could experience the LS in the same manner that I have.

I hope this is not the case, but would like to know if it is....

Of course it is not the case. Our VM friends have been nothing but kind and very friendly.

Words carry so far, and the wrong word at the wrong time here, can set off deadly chain reactions.

I do not have a problem with anyone from Voodoomoose, nor does anyone else here. VM has and will remain to be welcome here and in the Linkshell.
Dive
QUOTE (Zorya @ Apr 21 2004, 07:16 AM)
QUOTE (Woe @ Apr 20 2004, 07:57 PM)
Zorya and Elli: STOP IT, this is not the place for this. it shouldn't have been brought up here in the first place. it is entirely out of context.

Unless I am mistaken, I don't recall mentioning any names in my post. It therefore leaves me to assume that the deletion of my post was the result of some personal vendetta or someone else's temper tantrum.

Let it go Zorya.

Please.
Nynaeve
QUOTE (Dive @ Apr 21 2004, 01:49 PM)
Of course it is not the case. Our VM friends have been nothing but kind and very friendly.

Words carry so far, and the wrong word at the wrong time here, can set off deadly chain reactions.

I do not have a problem with anyone from Voodoomoose, nor does anyone else here. VM has and will remain to be welcome here and in the Linkshell.

*smiles*

Thanks for the clarification, I guess I really DO have to lose the "Mommy" attitude...VM is my "baby" of sorts, and were it, in the form of members, to misbehave or cause bad feelings elsewhere...well...I'd want to know.

...

No clue what I'd do, but...I'd want to try to help fix it. beigesmile.gif

beigeroll.gif

Kari
So, who's up for some fun then? Meet me in the steaming sheep for a raging keggar? Eh? Eh?

-Ferra
drunken_chibi
as per the AIM chat last night, the meeting is still on.. it's just the name change, etc, that's been scrapped. no idea what the meeting will include, though, as no one seemed to know last night. hopefully we can plan something before saturday...

but regardless i probably won't be around for the meeting for very long. i got called into work on saturday night... graveyard.. so i'll only be around for an hour or two at the most.
Dive
QUOTE (drunken_chibi @ Apr 21 2004, 02:16 PM)
as per the AIM chat last night, the meeting is still on.. it's just the name change, etc, that's been scrapped.

Wrong. Here is what I said and I will quote myself.

QUOTE
The new Linkshell plan is now on hold, at least in my view.


and later in the thread.

QUOTE
but it has been decided that for now...the new LS idea is put on hold.


It has not been scrapped.
The JadeDragon
This is what I think about the whole thing.

We all know a mistake was made, and that's cool, it's a part of life. So now we hold some sort of vote to see what everyone on the LS's views are(as far as changing the name/color, etc) and go from there. I know for myself, it dosen't bother me if we change the name or color, as long as I have some vote in what the change is.

Next I think, and again this is just my own personal opinion, we should have a 3rd advisor(not leaders) to go along with Dive and Woe. Someone outside of the AT "clan". Only reason for it being someone outside of the actual "clan" is if something like this comes up again, that person wont have the Tribe as their first concern. What I mean is, with Dive and Woe, their main thinking is prolly that which betters the Tribe(which is understandable and ok). Someone outside of the actual "clan" might be able to say, "hey wait a sec, what about this or that", and the this or that in this example could be something Dive and Woe didn't think about. Just a thought...

Last but not least I think everyone is the LS owes Dive and Woe some applause. Just as I lead everyone in the AIM chat last night to do. They are trying their best and they do a lot for the betterment of our LS and the happiness of the members within. So please put one up for Diggy Dive and Wiggy Woe...

toast.gif

BTW, my sig kicks your ass...lol
Dive
QUOTE (The JadeDragon @ Apr 21 2004, 03:43 PM)
What I mean is, with Dive and Woe, their main thinking is prolly that which betters the Tribe(which is understandable and ok). Someone outside of the actual "clan" might be able to say, "hey wait a sec, what about this or that", and the this or that in this example could be something Dive and Woe didn't think about. Just a thought...

Wrong.

From the get go, every decision made was done with the greater good of the Linkshell in mind, not just AT. We have strived to keep everyone in mind when it comes to decisions. We have been completely selfless in LS matters.
The JadeDragon
Well, I'm wrong...so shoot me...just trying to state my thoughts...my bad, I'll keep my thoughts to myself next time.
Ikari
Oh FYI, I am usually available on AIM if something goes down (unless I am playing FF XI), so if ya'll want you can IM me whenever you see me online. tke917 is my SN.
drunken_chibi
QUOTE (Dive @ Apr 21 2004, 03:40 PM)
Wrong. Here is what I said and I will quote myself.

"scrapped" was in reference to the plan as it pertained to the meeting, not the overall plan. so i am not wrong, though perhaps i should have clarified what i meant a little better. as i understood it last night, the meeting is still on, however plans to change the shell are currently not on for said meeting. therefore, scrapped.
Horosha Onikage
Unfortunately, I won't be able to attend this meeting this Saturday... Neither will Veis. We will both be out of town and celebrating a birthday with our relatives then.

Sorry guys...
Knightsword
I sadly won't be able to attend the meeting, due to work, I could chime in through other means such as aim or yahoo messenger, as I sit on my ass watching cameras all day.

As for the possibility of a name change, it was a good idea, since it is no longer just AT and GC members, please note I had no say in it ether and I as many others didn't care about it ether and am sorry to see it go on hold for the time being.

The help issue, well help is always nice and yes some due expect help in return which is only fair and people do get angry when it isn't. Yet it shouldn't turn into arguements that effect everyone. So please no more.

Thanks again to Dive and Woe for having us here and for keeping the site up and running
The JadeDragon
I gotta admit with all the drama that's been going down lately with the fights, people leaving the game and this name change idea...I am anxious to see what will be said at this meeting. Dive has been laying low lately and hasn't been on FFXI(at least that I've noticed) in a few days. I hope everything works out well...
Layrinn
I'm sorry, I won't be in attendance. I hope everything goes well.

- 'Rinn
Dive
I will not be able to make it to the meeting.

Some shit came up and I doubt I will be on FFXI for a while either.
Azrael
It's sad that so many people are still thinking about the name-change incident. I was hoping that the mess would blow-over. cry2.gif I'm at my class waiting on my ride. I'll think about it somemore and post later. There has to be some sort of a solution to all of the mess without people leaving because of it. cry2.gif
Bryn
My apologies to those that would miss my presence, but I also will not be attending this meeting.
Azrael
I want to know who is coming. Seems like everyone is either too angry to come or has to do something. It seems like most of the AT people involved in planning the meeting arenn't coming besides Woe(as far as I know). I think we need a meeting where everyone is able to come. I think it might help in the healing process cause all of this squabbling among the linkshell/boards is at least starting to affect me as well because I'm getting a feeling of helplessness.
The JadeDragon
With so many people not coming, is there even a reason for the rest of us to show up? Is there even a point to this meeting anymore?
Henge
Meeting canceled, for now...
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