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AC9breaker
With Summer just about here, I've had a lot more time to do things Ive been wanting to do, and a lot more time to do nothing. Usually in those times of nothingness, I contemplated about things I've done or plan to do; entertain various thoughts of existentialist, philosophical, political, or just thoughts of an incoherent nature.

Recently I've had this thought in my head and I'm not sure which would better suit the goals I plan on achieving. That being would it be better in life to live as a cog in a clock, or a particle in space. I don't recall exactly what was thinking that brought me to these two examples but ultimately I thought a choice is made of from these two.

As a cog, one would have others to support you, one can depend on others (which could also serve as a handicap) there is a logical order or process in which things occur.

As a Particle, one is free to choose ones own destiny , no constraints. The Unexpected.

There are also downsides to both paths but I would rather see what some of you guys would say or choose. There is the other path that I've obviously overlooked. I say that because I refuse to believe that there is only two choices in anything we do in life. So, lets share our thoughts with each other. Do I just have too much free time on my hands or is there something to what I'm saying here? wassup.gif at-emote2.gif
HC82
Close to graduating college and not sure what to do with yourself?

First off, when making choices in life, you are a human. You are part of human society and interact and add to human culture on a daily basis. Even the so called "counter culture" adds to human culture and adds to the continued chain of influence on mankind.


That 's important to understand before going into words like "freedom," "destiny," and "choices."


Well, it's easy to make a Particle sound oh so glamorous in a world where freedom is just a "word." You always have the freedom to make choices in your life. Every second of every day you make choices. The reality is whether or not the freedom to make choices actually leads to one's freedom, which isn't the reality. For one's destiny, you're merely given a microcosm of near inifinite choices everyday of your life, which brings you closer to what you believe is your destiny, but in a world where even your chosen destiny is so heavily intertwined by cultural and societial influences (the actions of others), picking one's own destiny goes as far as picking a toy in a toy store. You can only think, choose, and feel based on how you're given to feel, to think, and to choose from. Expressing yourself as an unique individual goes as far as to what types of clothing I can pick out in a store (metaphorically speaking). I didn't make the clothes, someone else did, so how unique am I, let alone the freedom and uniqueness of my choices? You didn't make culture alone, someone else did, from ages past intill now. Culture, for mankind, is LIFE, since it heavily dictates our life style. There's still constraints not in the choices you make, but the choices to pick from in life.

Freedom to choose one's own destiny has as many constraints as home owner insurance. Theres never a question toward one's freedom to choose. Only the question of the choices avaliable and the influences behind why those choices are avaliable and if so, why you choose it.

There's no escaping that reality. But that is a part of mankind.

As for a cog, one aspect of human nature is that we are social creatures. We thrive and rely on each other, and in every sense of the words "thrive and rely," man kind's greatest achievements have been performed based upon utilizing each others strengths to create something awesome. A perfect example is a video game. The best games are made by a team of people, and its done waaaaay faster then a single individual. One cannot forsake the "group" in one's life, because it is a neccessity of life. The key is to utilize it to one's benefit, as well as to those around you. Regardless, it's not a matter of having to depend on others to move foward, but to tap into the strength of others to fortify one's own shortcomings. Meaning, it's neccessar to be self suffucient enough to function in a balanced manner by one's own self, but also never forsake and always utilize the strengths of others, so long as there is an equal balance and mutual gain on everyone's part. Because, as the video game example illustrates, that is the beauty of mankind's group aspect, which is also, in its self, what human culture SHOULD be about; meaning the shared benefit of the group, not the self.

Life doesn't work this way, but the foundation of how humans are created supports that it should. Obviously, theres a flaw somewhere in the cultural scheme.

Both choices yield postive results. Freedom and "the cog." It's about having the freedom to remove yourself from the crap of mankind and embracing the combined and shared aspects of mankind that makes life worth living.

In short, you've got something inside you that isn't determined by anyone. Those desires and skills need to be expressed. That's called being YOURSELF. You factor mankind out of the equation and look within. Granted, you never choose it, since it was born in you, but expressing that is part of your purpose, your freedom. I think people put such a huge focus on freedom. Mankind builds its own cages. Some people feel free, and others don't, but regardless, those cages do exist and they do impact the world (ex. need of money). So long as you can follow that inside of you which is not determined by society and culture past and present, you're expressing freedom. But the reality is that in order to express that, others will factor into the equation, as will culture and society. Those aspects will influence you, but so long as you can still express "freedom" for yourself (not to be confused with selfish desires). We are communal based after all. It's just about taking everything external and internal and creating postive things from it.
AC9breaker
I'm not in any way trying to put down the role of the Cog. Like you said, they both have their ups and downs. I just wanted to keep the topic open and free from my thoughts and really general; hoping to stimulate other unique thoughts.

As for the cage, you can't deny that some people end up putting themselves in a rut or really do limit them self to life that isn't what they may have waned for themselves. Usually they end up living average American lives. Not to say that there is nothing wrong with it, but to me living such an average life would be my own cage. Not being able to pursue a greater goal would have to be my greatest fear. I've already taken the time to even plan out steps and paths I would need to take to reach a point where I could accomplish such things and back up plans if need be. Like you said, we build our own cage and the cage for me would be not being able to accomplish my goals.

I personally have already decided on a life of a particle if it makes any sense. I really want to have a significantly positive effect on this world. I want to change the world for the better in a manner that can be felt by all or at least a large amount. It seems to me that in order to bring about change, one has to have the perspective outside of group in order to change it. I feel that in doing such a thing and bringing about change, one is also alienating them self from the group. Those belonging to the group may come to see that persons thoughts as too different and may be drawn away or may even try to destroy it. Thus forth causing one to be shunned, living the life of a loner or as a particle in space, alone. I say to myself I could deal with such a thing but of course its easier to say now then to actually live through it.
HC82
QUOTE
I feel that in doing such a thing and bringing about change, one is also alienating them self from the group. Those belonging to the group may come to see that persons thoughts as too different and may be drawn away or may even try to destroy it. Thus forth causing one to be shunned, living the life of a loner or as a particle in space, alone. I say to myself I could deal with such a thing but of course its easier to say now then to actually live through it.



Ever heard the story of "In the valley of the blind, the one eye man is king?"

Everyone is essentially blind and there is one man who can see. Obviously, he has the potential to ascend to kingship because he can see that which others cannot, giving him an edge. His downfall, though, is when he tries to show everyone else what he sees. They deem him mad, a dissenter, and they pluck out his eye, so he too is just like them, "blind."

Theres a strong lesson to learn here. If you try to enlighten others who are outside of the ability to conceptualize, chances are they won't get you at all. In fact they will, as you stated, shun you because you're not like them. Don't try to force people to see what you see, because it won't work. Just use the edge you have in your understanding of the world to your advantage. But, none the less, it's totally possible to utilize those same people who would shun you, and in fact have them not shun you at all, and still fullfil your obligations.

The key is to let them be, but use your "one eyed" advantage to maximize your environment to your advantage. Once you're in a position where you are in control of an environment, you no longer need to enlighten or persaude people, you dictate and shape the very environement the way you see it fit.

In the story, the one eyed man should of shut his mouth and use his one eye to his advantage.

Sometimes its not about standing defiant against something, but being defiantly quiet against something.

I will also comment on "The Art of War" to further this point.

Sun Tzu states, "All warfare is based on deception." If you intend to make a change in the world, do realize you will directly infringe on people who want the world to be just where it is, in the shitter, because that is what keeps them in power and makes them rich. War is war and fighting against anything takes on a war like mentality. The war on poverty, the war on hunger... These literaly aren't actual wars, yet it is a battle to fight them; a war of sorts. The same is applied when trying to do postive things; it is a war against the negative to do the postive.

So, with Sun Tzu in mind, deception is a key tool to warfare.

I can yell out "I'm going to stop you" and in turn, I prepare you for my attack, or I can walk quietly toward you and stab you in the side. Which is more effective? Obviously the deceptive approach.

When doing postive things, when trying to enact change, don't overlook the deceptive approach to doing positive things. It essentially causes people to do postive things without them realizing it, even if it goes directly against what they are about as a person. This bypasses the "shunning aspect" that occurs and these very same people can be utilized to enact postive change as well. Studying characteristics of human behavior assists in that to some degree. Reinforcing teamwork is the best method in enacting change. You find people who use teamwork for good and bad things. Example: I scratch your back and you scratch my back. That is far more self intersted in nature and the teamwork involved there might not really be associated with something positive, but none the less it causes people to help one another. It's not about reinforcing the attitude, but learning from it. Why does it work? Once you see how it works, its just abot implementing it in the 'right' way.

Long rant short, cause if i go on, I will not stop typing. If you want to get anything done, you need to be in a position of enacting change. The system is obviously corrupt, but you can't force change. In fact, let the system work for you. Master it, so to speak. It's like being an undercover detective. You need to infiltrate a organization to bring it down, right? Problem is that once you infilitrate the system, you become a part of its crappiness. If you ascend to positions of authority, you will see how terribly corrupt it really is and you begin to question if you even won't to be in that position. That's where the deception comes into play.

*ninja vanish*
Wiryu
QUOTE
If you try to enlighten others who are outside of the ability to conceptualize, chances are they won't get you at all. In fact they will, as you stated, shun you because you're not like them.


This is nicely said. It's true, most people are, for a lack of a better word, idiots. I don't mean to sound elitest or snobby by saying that, but people aren't accepting for things they don't understand, and they will be fast to put down something that is considered confusing, against the grain, or truthful. This is a result of peoples fearful, and stubborn nature. Don't give up on people though, what many will shun, some will find mentally stimulating, and you'll get some of the greatest conversation out of something like that.

QUOTE
With Summer just about here, I've had a lot more time to do things Ive been wanting to do, and a lot more time to do nothing. Usually in those times of nothingness, I contemplated about things I've done or plan to do; entertain various thoughts of existentialist, philosophical, political, or just thoughts of an incoherent nature.

Recently I've had this thought in my head and I'm not sure which would better suit the goals I plan on achieving. That being would it be better in life to live as a cog in a clock, or a particle in space. I don't recall exactly what was thinking that brought me to these two examples but ultimately I thought a choice is made of from these two.


Particle and Cog are a great way to break things down, but unfortunetly I don't think it's entirely as simple as that. I don't think any one person should choose one or the other, because I think COG and Particle co-exist with each person, just one side tends to be more dominant between people. To swear to one side is mental suicide. This relates to Independence and Dependence, they need to co-exist like there is a good and an evil, because one without the other is going to leave you stranded somewhere in a position you really won't want to be in, because you won't know what to do, no matter how much in/dependence you have.

You don't want to be alone all your life, the isolation will drive you mad, and the same goes with being surrounded by people all the time, no matter how much they mean to you. It's all about finding the right people, and the right amount of time to yourself to think. If you have the right people, or even one person, you can talk about everything building up in your time of isolationism.

I know exactly how you feel about this, because i've pretty much been spending my summer the same way. Just live like yourself. Give yourself goals, and try to achieve them. Live happy by your standards.
Sieranis
Wow...

Let me begin by mentioning that I adore all things philosophical. However, due to the lack of continuing to challenge or keep my mind trained, I can no longer form cohesive or meaningful responses. So I basically consider myself an idiot who tries not to portray himself as such. I'll tell you right now that I wish I could bring something into the conversation that would make some or any sense to all of you. Though I'm still going to try.

To me, being a particle seems to be similar as feigning ignorance. To claim uniqueness and self-importance, which people tend to do, trying to disassociate themselves from the normal crowd. Though I'm not saying that being a socialite is any better. Both do tend to lead to the eventual formation of a group with like-minding ideas or whatnot. Much like what occurs in schools, although I feel that may be a bad example. With that I feel that, similar with HC82's thoughts, "freedom" is not quite what it's definition implies in reality. The given choices that an individual may make, is in itself bound by many circumstances that said person may have. Ok, so now I feel like I'm just reiterating what was just mentioned, so to give an example I'll now use myself.

Right now there are many things I wish to do, however, be it my mentality or my living situation, I'm now greatly limited in my choices. At this moment, I want to start college, however due to expenses I'm restrained from picking a college that will educate me in the certain careers I like. I'd also like to start working, and earn some much needed experience in the workplace. I could also try to do both, work part-time and go to college. Although that would be more efficient I don't think I'll be up to the task. I'll go on to mention that I do have a mental disorder and it greatly affects my ability to function. I even have greater aspirations that I would like to reach, and because of my disorder this sometimes leads to the breakdown of evaluating my life as it stands. And as helpful as contemplating oneself can be, I begin to lose track of my original goals.

Although my thoughts on the cog will be less extensive they go straight to the point. The cog would be a much more logical choice, given my frame of mind. To be able to rely on others is the greater strength. Of course in reality it really depends on the person/persons you are relying on. Should they prove to be unreliable, you find yourself. in a problematic situation.

At this point, I wish there was a third choice, one that is equal in reliance and freedom. But you mentioned none, so meh... I stand by the cog. You have my apologies if I couldn't really add to the discussion.
Wheatpenny
Imo both choices aren't desirable. Neither has true freedom. The cog is bound by the constraints of order just as the particle is bound by the constraints of being at the whim of random fate. The true answer lies in whatever answer is not in the 2 options presented.
AC9breaker
QUOTE(Wiryu @ Jun 19 2007, 03:01 AM) *
QUOTE
If you try to enlighten others who are outside of the ability to conceptualize, chances are they won't get you at all. In fact they will, as you stated, shun you because you're not like them.


This is nicely said. It's true, most people are, for a lack of a better word, idiots. I don't mean to sound elitest or snobby by saying that, but people aren't accepting for things they don't understand, and they will be fast to put down something that is considered confusing, against the grain, or truthful. This is a result of peoples fearful, and stubborn nature. Don't give up on people though, what many will shun, some will find mentally stimulating, and you'll get some of the greatest conversation out of something like that.





You know I had been meaning to respond to this for awhile. I think in general, people are smart.Although we all have our stories of encounters we've had of just really dumb fucks. I'm sure we've had encounters with really clever people. Just that, because the memory of the stupid people is so vivid, it overshadows the good. I don't think we give people enough credit they deserve. How ever, masses and mob mentality, now that I can agree to thinking of as stupid.
But like HC stated its more along the lines of different thinking patterns as opposed to; some people are stupid, and some people are lolsmertz.


Also, I think it would have been obvious in real life practice to reach for an option that brings a balance. Thats a lot of our what life is, the struggle to maintain balance, work versus play, time for yourself versus time with others, sweets versus your dietary needs, etc. Usually once there is a superfluous amount of anything; and we continue to add to it, then we begin to experience negative reactions. I'm not saying the choice made must be an extreme but we tend to lean more towards one side then the other. Its like Kill Bill part2 when they think they killed Beatrix, he asks the one eye chick. I know you feel both but, "which one do you feel more?" All this, is just my pontification on an intangible subject, therefore its open for interpretation. Inject your own meaning to the role or value of the cog/particle.


ZioII
you work and then you die.

the end.
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